I agree with ebert. video games are not art. BUT some are like art. bioshock comes to mind, mainly for its enviroment and how it makes you feel like it is a real world. ocarina of time comes to my mind to but this is my opinion tho. some are art mainly the older games. the games now a days are NOT art.
There are only a few video games that I would argue are in fact art. This is one of them:
Games don’t have to look like “art” to be art.
Wikipedia says “Art is the process or product of deliberately arranging elements in a way to affect the senses or emotions”. Video games deliberately affect your senses and emotions.
Liking art is totally subjective though, so Ebert can dislike the video game art form. But trying to argue that video games aren’t art is WRONG. I’d agree with him if he said that most video games are bad ART.
But: bad films are art, bad music is art, bad fine art is art, bad modern art is art and bad Video Games are art – even Madden is art.
I didn’t choose Okami just because it “looked” like art.
Isn’t art meant to be subjective, one person can view it as art while another person might not e.g some people think the mechanichs of a car would be art while another might not
I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments in the video. It’s not even acceptable for people to agree to disagree anymore, there seems to a notion that any intellectual debate is a massive struggle that must result in bashing your opponent to pieces so that your own ideas win. And with most of the discussions going on in a forum, it’s all the better to slander and insult when your rival remains words on a screen.
Then again, I don’t totally blame the kids in this regard, I think that their parents consciously decided to overindulge them to the point where they don’t know how to respond when they don’t get their way. And in this world of instant gratification, they better get their way right this minute.
As to the video games as art, that’s too huge a question for me to get a handle on. I’ve been in classes where we spent weeks just trying to wrap the word art into a definition that we could all stomach. That would have been my one comment to Ebert’s proclamation on video games as a whole: do you think it’s impossible for video games to be art or is it merely that they haven’t progressed to that point yet?
I agree 100% with you Rob. Great comment.
I’ve always been more attracted to the artistic side of video games. That is to say, their creation vs. their execution (or playing them, in other words). I’m not sure you can invalidate a medium which requires character design, level design, computer modelling, and all manner of other skills which involve creative input to a greater or lesser extent (is programming art? Skill? Is there a difference?) by simply saying, “Oh that stuff’s not art.” They certainly involve art to create a finished product. That would be like saying comics are not art, even though they involve artists at all levels of production.
When you put it like that, LKR, video games should be considered art. There obviously a lot of artist working on a video game, but are the little things the artists are doing coming to together to present one piece of art. I don’t think so(in most cases). Today’s video games are far superior to the games of the past, and as the medium progresses so will the artists involved. So in my opinion video games could be art in the future but at this point, not so much.
Hmmm…do I have anything to add? Without going into semantic particulars about the definition of art, not really. I’m not much of a gamer myself (well, at all, really…), but I hope people can respect Ebert without jumping down his throat too much (perhaps that’s a bad choice of words). Too late. Seems they’ve already attacked. Personally, I’ve always liked that dude. And as you pointed out, that’s not the same as agreeing with everything he’s ever said.
That was a very fair and balanced comment Ryan (maybe a bit too fair and balanced). I think you are the Fox News of CCW commmenters. 🙂
Oh, my goodness. Fox News?! You do know how to press my buttons, J. I guess that means I’m not fair and balanced at all, though. I’ll leave it to the Culture Warriors to decide. Hey, isn’t that the title of Bill O’Reilly’s book? Bazinga.
BTW, I love the look on Elliott’s face in the video thumbnail.
He reminds me of the hookah-smoking caterpillar.
He looks like Will Farrel doing Harry Carey.
See, it’s the same face!
The boys down at the lab have found a match! That’s some fine police work, Pobra.
Elliot in a few years
HAHA, I scrolled up after reading this and immediately started laughing.
The comics industry will break him mentally if he ever has to work for the Big 2.
Dan Slott is not far behind
i must say you guys are getting very deep in these videos has your world view suddenly changed jose are you starting to get much more negative view on the breakdown of the human collective psych. personally i think you guys will still be making these videos in fifty years time with you older but be on an iv drip of red bull and elliot in a wheel chair just a deceaying mass of flab using a computer to talk.
I wouldn’t say that my world view has suddenly changed. This is how I’ve always felt. I think what you are seeing in these last couple of videos are what Elliott and I are really like as individuals. These videos videos are a bit more “real” than us just doing comic reviews I think if that makes any sense.
deep man very deep like a whale’s vagina
Ya, that is not a good thing I take it?
no it’s good but i dunno man sort of interesting to find out you and elliot’s views on politics plus i love the fact that on one board i’m complementing you on being very philosopical (sorry if thats spelt wrong) and on another i’m slagging you about your choice in movies.lol
No J. this is a very good thing, that’s why it’s called comic CULTURE WARRIOR, not J. and E.’s Friendly Review Show. I don’t feel like this is anything new Mcirish, I mean you have always been a cynical.
me cynical how so?
roger ebert is a dinosaur who hasnt played a video game since centepede. we should just ignore him and let him retire.
i was really looking to shoehorn ‘jaw dropping’, or something similar, into this, but no dice.
Ignorance is bliss, huh? Nice outlook on life.
Well, I actually played Centipede in the arcades when it was new myself. Are you calling me a dinosaur and for me to retire too? Also, your jaw dropping comment is kinda juvenile and crass. Just saying…
roger ebert knows a LOT about movies, and theres no doubt in my mind he has valid views on that subject. but he has no knowledge on video games and has expressed no desire to learn about them, so i think it would be wise for the video gaming community to just ignore him when it comes to this.
im not calling for his immediate retirement, im just saying his opinions on video games arent really valid as anything other then just a mans opinion. rock and roll never asked for the publics approval but i think we can all agree it has artistic merit. video games are a relatively new media and theres going to be some bumps on its way to the acceptance it clearly desires. they just shoulnt let one mans opinion bother them so much.
also if you were a dinosaur, youd proably be a stegosaurus.
the jaw dropping comment was absolutely juvenile and crass. i do feel pretty bad about that. i should have been more respectful, so yeah, sorry roger if youre reading, and i doubt you are, but on the off chance he is…
Ok, I see where you are coming from now. We also stated that his views on the subject are not valid and the video game community should also just ignore it. I did not know in your initial comment that that was what you were referring to. I thought your comment was just about Ebert in general and not his thoughts on video games. Sorry for the confusion.
Stegosauruses are pretty cool, aren’t they?
stegosauruses have spikes, and jose is known to be a bit prickly! haha.
Or on occasion just an outright prick. 🙂
Gamers are the extreme example of the hypersensitive, polarized society we live in now. Everything now is about picking sides, belonging to an certain group, long gone are the days of respectfully disagreeing with someone viewpoint.
Ebert wasn’t being attacked solely because of his views on the artistic merits of video games, he was being attacked because his views pushed him across the imaginary line drawn on the internet that marked him as being disrespectful to the fanboy gamers way of life. It’s the whole you’re either ‘with us’ or ‘against us’ mentality taken to the extreme.
I shouldn’t single just gamers out, just about any niche group on the internet now seems to have the same attitude.
Conservatives vs. Liberals
PC vs. Mac
Xbox vs. PS3
Jacob vs. Edward
All sort of silly things to fight about, but people do fight about them, and in some rather vicious ways.. I don’t know, I am trying to maintain a good attitude about the internet. It was suppose to be this great place to bring people together so they can share ideas and make the world a better place.. still waiting for that to happen.
The CCW nation is being the change you wish to see in the internet.
one of the creepiest things ever funny but creepy.
You’re totally creeping out my high, man.
hahahaha just lock your doors and window only joking seriously creepy advert
Edward > Jacob …what…don’t judge me it’s a guilty pleasure.
It is a guilty pleasure…that you should never ever, under any circumstances, freely admit to. 😛
But, ya, I’m not judging you.
haha yeah I know, it’s so bad. I tried to resist it for so long. lol
It’s OK, when the young gamers get old and become the establishment they’ll be able to turn around and call the stuff the kids in the future listen to ‘not music’ the stuff they read ‘not literature’ and everything else ‘not art.’ They’ll get their chance; it’s the circle of life. All paths lead to owning a lawn and some kid inevitably walking on it.
Why did you change your avatar pic? The other one was much classier IMO.
Given that the other one was a shot of Vixen’s moose knuckle (as IM put it), I’m gonna assume you’re not a fan of MAD? But I guess I just got tired of it, I’ll probably change it frequently. Long term commitments to avatar pics make me nervous.
No, I actually do like MAD. I was just being facetious. It happens from time to time.
For the record I should say I don’t think it’s unfair to place MAD as slightly less classier than a shot of a cartoon camel toe. In fact I’m sure the original publishers would insist on it.
I do believe that that topic would make for quite an interesting debate.
Games have revolutionized storytelling. I am not even a hardcore gamer and I think games are a fun way to stay busy.
I’ll say it again, Heavy Rain is art. Its well-thought out storytelling, with exceptional directing and a very original interaction between the player and the game. I play a few games a year, (mainly because the prices -_-) but I think they are very much art, people just think its a lazy form of it. Roger can say what he wants. I love some of his reviews, but I am just saying I feel they are art. That’s me. For ever person who thinks Heavy Rain ISN’T art, I feel like the game is more to myself 🙂 and I have it all to me!! Ahhh ha ha!
*puts on agent orange ring*
lol, but yeah, good review guys.
Video Games have revolutionised story telling? Are you kidding me? Most games are just digital versions of the choose your own adventure books that were around when I was a kid (I bet Eliot and Jose will remember who Steve jacksson and Ian Livingstone are), its just do this to get x or do that to get y, its not that sophisticated at all.
There is some art and a lot of skill to video game construction but its still to early in the history of videogames to label it an art form. Games now are like comics back in the 40’s or film back in the 1920’s, the makers are still finding their feet when it comes to what they can do with them.
Mmm. I have stated before that RECENT games like Heavy Rain revolutionized storytelling. And I stand by my statement. It has. Heavy Rain is better than every single comic Brian Michael Bendis wrote in the year 2009. But, I’m sure people would argue Comics are more of art-form than video games.
And they have actually been around for a while now, and we’ve seen enough bad games to know whats not art, but in the past few years we’ve seen some phenomenal games that pushed those barriers. Yes, your right, its a new medium, and people have been exploring with it for over 20 years now. How far-fetched is it that in 2009/2010, creators have reached that next level?
Its the same with the Metal Gear Franchise. Which has been around for a while now. The reason I said HR revolutionized storytelling was because of the way you interact with the characters and thus alter the story with every choice you make. Its a beautiful script, and I can see every aspect of the story the way I want to. Most movies, comics, books, songs, plays, animes, musicals, operas, poems, paintings don’t do that. They don’t let you see the beginning/middle/ending you want. This is something new.
Thus, a revolution of new experiences.
Mike, I am very disappointed that you didn’t bring up Kid Niki as an excellent example of how video games have revolutionized storytelling.
Wow, that takes me back. We used to play the shit out of Kid Niki back in the wayback. In the long, long ago. I wanted to see even more.
OK. Here you go.
Atta boy! You are one rad dude.
Rad dude…or Bad Dude?
They actually had a game called bad dudes?
That’s like having a movie called “Young black rookie cop, teams up with old white retiring cop the Movie.”
DUDE! When is that coming out, I will be going to the movie theatre opening night. I love Tommy Lee Jones and Chris Brown!
Tom it’s called Men in Black 4
Haha, there of so many games that took part in that revolution. From Chrono Trigger to Sam Fischer. I could list them for days…
HaHahaha, Don’t hate on USA Espionage!
(I’m still pissed they won’t release Conviction for PS3) 😦
Ugggg…I couldn’t stand Splinter Cell. I tried playing it but it just really wanted to be Metal Gear way too much. I love that Kojima even kinda made fun of it in this trailer.
We all wanna be Metal Gear my friend. We all wanna be Metal gear…
also, which Splinter Cell did you play? If it was Double-Agent then yeah it was kinda insane but Chaos Theory really stood its own ground I feel.
I only played the first one. That was enough for me.
I remember this!
I don’t necessarily think that letting the end-user have that kind of control is a good thing. How many ordinary schlebs have any kind of artistic bone in their bodies? How many of us can pencil comics, write operas, direct musicals, most people coudln’t even write a decent haiku.
Art IS something that only a few have, Michelangelo, Jack Kirby, Stanley Kubrick. I bet if most people looked at a Piet Mondrian picture that they’d think they could do something as good…but they couldn’t, most people would fuck it up so that it would look shit. Look at what tv has become since they let more people have an input, fucking reality tv. Thank god for tv stations like HBO or Showtime for giving a home to great scripted tv, what we need are more game companies like HBO and less like Blizzard and EA.
I agree with you about TV and yes, thank god for HBO. But, this is what makes it different. I have control. I can build the story the way I want it, and see the outcome I desire, I want, I need. The resolution I want. Just because some people fuck up good stories doesn’t mean I will or Jose will or you will. There are still alot of people who want to see a good story. That’s why its important. Because, you literally can see every aspect of it. When a great movie ends badly, well then, fuck. It might as well not be a great movie. But, when you have a say in it. It’s just something special… It makes the resolution feel stronger, feel more rewarding. Its been over 20 years since games have been created and I can safely say, that as of 2010, something really spectacular has been made.
Just like cable has a lot of bad shows, there’s a lot of bad games out there. Which is why HR is the equivalent of HBO. Its that proof that someone out there wants to do a good job. Not for money but for the sake of art. Because its important to him.
Yes. I agree with this.
Dude you almost made me wanna become a gamer…almost.
Very appealing arguement
You should…it’s alot of fun! 😛
Not enough time in the day, I wish I had the luxury.
Plus I just started back college Yay me! I’m 3 classes away from a BA and I figure might as well do it and finish.
Night School!!!! I’m tired
Its a decent argument and you put your case well….but I still don’t think it makes it art. It may be satisfying but so is a kitkat or a bottle of beer and I don’t think the majority of people would call them art.
I have yet to be convinced although I’m not dogmatic about it.
I think the level of satisfaction is different from candy and beer to investing your time and money into a video game. When Mark Millar writes a really bad comic, and you see something you don’t like you can’t change it. So what did you get out of your money?
When you play a game like Heavy Rain, you have a say in what happens. Actually you have a say in just about everything that happens. You invest yourself into the game emotionally, and feel rewarded when certain characters have good outcomes. Because you helped it happen that way. You take it seriously, not a way of just sitting around being lazy, this is a game where you have to think about every choice.
If I may quote Alan Moore “You have to give the reader what he needs, not what he wants.” When Mark Millar gives me what I don’t want, I feel dissatisfied. When I play Heavy Rain, I am in control. If I pay attention and take it seriously, I get the outcome I need. I see the resolution my heart truly needs to see. Thus, I get my moneys worth.
But yeah if you not into it, its cool. But if you ever come across this game, don’t be scared to give it a go. Its without a doubt fun 🙂
“It may be satisfying but so is a kitkat or a bottle of beer.”
OK…I’m going to finally have to step in here and disagree with you Locus. That analogy does not fit at all and is quite a bit demeaning to video games as a whole. I have found certain video games to be satisfying on many levels: emotional, thoroughly engaging, thought provoking, making moral choices and seeing the consequences, giving you a certain sense of accomplishment, etc. None of these experiences feel hollow at all. I have felt all of these things when watching films or reading comics and novels. To dismiss these things entirely is a mistake. Just my opinion though.
and FYI – NEVER GO ON XBOX LIVE!!! I Swear I’ve never seen so much racism, homophobic, sexists remarks in my life. I had to sell my xbox just to avoid such assholes. Wow.
My brother just surpassed 100,000 gamer points (?) or some such nonsense. I take it that’s good? He’s ranked #2 in all of Ontario or something.
I wouldn’t necessarily say that it’s “good”. 🙂
Gamer points come from the games you play. Not technically how well you play with people online.
You can never play with people on line and get that many points. and You’d be better off since you won’t deal with the worst assholes in the entire planet.
Yeah, that’s basically him. Just 11 years older. I fear X-Box has destroyed any future he might have possibly had.
do you think that if aliens came near the earth and scanned or comunications thiking we shall share the wonders of the universe with this society they are truly advanced and civilised and then they see that i small child shouting at the woman who brought him into this world to bring him some chocolate milk while he take plessure in the act of murder and they say fuck it lets try mars
If you believe Mr. Hawking, they’d recruit him. Or maybe they already have… dun dun, etc.
i think if they did it would be to make fun of him like put his room up a flight of stairs or have all the toilets work with voice control.
Aliens with duplex technology? That’ll be the day.
Aidan, on second pass now I see the confusion. The ‘him’ they would recruit in order to destroy humanity is the kid not Hawking.
ah sorry feel kinda stupid for that one
I have XBOX-360. Just not XBOX LIVE.
Ya’ know it makes so much sense why Bendis loves Xbox live.
He’s in his element
Oh absolutley! I just like xbox as a system, not for the extranious stuff,
I personally think something is classified as “art” if it is art to you.
Elliot definitely hit it on the head with the women getting treated different by gamer-fanboys. They are really rude and verbally abusive when they figure out you’re a girl. With the comic-fanboys it’s mostly that they totally ignore your opinion and act like you are invisible when they realize you’re a chick. It’s really frustrating.
One of the things I love about this blog and the people on it is that no one ignores me just because I’m not a guy.
…okay now group hug everybody.
Hey, thurs a chick in the clubhouse!
lol oh Locus.
OH YEAH! 🙂
Perfect, I can now get a woman’s advice. Should I be diversifying my portfolio?
That’s not ALWAYS a good thing my friend 😉
I would say yes in this market.
And while you are at it I would suggest putting decorative(and festive depending on the holiday)towels and soaps in your bathroom.
You sound like someone I know, to my grief
Thanks Stamps! 🙂
I’ll give you a sweet cut as soon as soon as my first cool million rolls in.
How important are these decorative towels and soaps though?
No problem, I’ll take the standard 10%
Extremly important. they make a bathroom more inviting and adds a pesonal touch. I’m always willing to throw out womanly advice. 😛
…but for God’s sake don’t actually wash/dry your hands with the soap or towels
You sound like just like my stock broker.
I present Penny Arcade.
People still read penny arcade?
I think video games are art, but in it’s own form. Like music is an art in it’s own form.
If you guys were to start talking about cars, at least you’d be talking men stuff 😉
I believe games can be art, no doubt ECO and Shadow of the Colossus are artful.
Eberts a good guy, but yeah he’s from another generation
Totally! I just hope he has good things to say about Iron Man 2.
I think Ebert has enough appreciation for Robert Downey Jr, that he can overlook his obvisous distaste for comicbook based material.
Actually, Ebert is a fan of comic books and often goes out of his way to praise films that are based on them. I remember him gushing about ‘Dark City’ as a comic book movie without a comic.
Well I’ll be corrected
So what’s his beef with Kick-ass? Other than a preteen with a potty mouth
That is was a complete piece of shit. That was my problem with it too.
It’s also interesting to note that Ebert does a commentary track on the Dark City DVD. I’m a fan of that movie, and his commentary is great.
I think its not so much about Games themselves, its more about how a lot of overweight kids only play video games instead of going outside and being fit and in shape. Its a bad image, but its a real one.
So they get this rep that games are making kids fatter and lazier…
I’m gonna say something off topic and which I’m sure will get my if not killed, possibly marked with a scarlet letter.
Khoi Pham’s art is growing on me!
I said!! damn it and I feel sick
At least it wasn’t about video games…
I have little experience with gaming, I had my short very short love affair with Street Fighter and Call of Duty series.
Halo did nothing for me, just didn’t see what the big fuss was and the Metal Gear series had little or no appeal other than the design work.
So yeah glad it wasn’t about gaming
Well, if you don’t want to read comments about video games maybe you shouldn’t be reading comments in a thread about video games. Just a thought. 😛
See how I took the heat right off you, Deemar?
Your my wingman! lol
Nah..I’ll stick too it
It gives me great pleasure reading your mastubatory posts about videogames, it let’s me know your still human.
You should feel sick. That is just damn disgusting.
I do…but I’ve noticed he’s improving and I like what I see.
Maybe..maybe if Pham can change and be better maybe just maybe Loeb could not suck?
Nah…! fuck am I saying?
You need to understand J, Deemar is always sticking up for Bagley too, something about a horse that works or something. So Deemar, you continue to praise mediocre art all you want, I for one am not jumping on board.
Speaking of mediocre art, check your hotmail, Tom.
Don’t sell yourself short. It’s great.
Thanks, man. I’m glad you like it!
“I see you Ry, I see you.”
Why didn’t I get some “mediocre art in my hotmail”? Or is that code for something?
You must “see” him, Avatar style
You can have some, too. If you agree to send me a trade of my choice, however. Will draw for comics!
I got some old X-men trades you can have’m!
A trade of MY choice, Dee. Nice try, though.
You can have them anyways, that and I’m pretty much done with my Ult. Marvel books.
What ya’ looking for?
Go to the chatroom, real quick, Dee. If we keep on in here, this thread will beat the last open thread in postcount.
Not saying Pham is my favorite or that he’s even in my top 100, but as the Navi say “I see you Khoi, I see you.”
WORKHORSE BAGLEY is a WORKHORSE!
Gotta respect that
But HORSESHIT is HORSESHIT.
Gotta respect that.
We’ll have to disagree
I can change my mind if I want too
Deemar you got to quit with that! When I was watching the Kentucky Derby all I thought about was Mark Bagley.
Just replace the thought of Bagley with JrJr he’s a workhorse also!
I simply have a weak spot for hard workers.
We do have this war of words don’t we!
I will be using this video from now on in the comments section. If you receive it, wear it as a badge of honor.
It’s just so fun, Why not.
Even though you back Mark Bagley and Khoi “Dirt Merchant” Pham you are still the man behind the Sunday Funnies, so you must have some taste.
Screw Metal of Honor, I have the real thing….
ccw boards: THE BADGE OF HONOR
Whoa…not backing Khoi, I’m just seeing the guy’s work improve.
I reserve my true hatred for Loeb and Bendis
Ok “improve”, I can handle that.
When I “watch the kentucky derby,” I find it helpful to think about baseball.
No, if I think about my little pony it’s over in seconds.
How have I never heard of this movie before?
Before anyone gets the wrong idea: I am not a horsefucker! I can’t stress that enough. Well, there was that one time in college. My dorm room was right next to the campus stables. I was on my way back from a poetry slam and I had had a few drinks. Orange juice mostly. The smell of the stables was the first thing I noticed that night. And well, you know, the rest as they say, is history; or should I say horsefuckingstory. Get it? Horse-Fucking-Story? Instead of history? I replaced the “hi” in history with “horse fucking” because of the content of the story, which was about horse fucking.
Seriously, I’ve never fucked a horse.
He he…poetry slam. Weirdo.
This belongs all over the place just above but I’m gonna put it here:
Many snaps were doled out that fateful day.
Is this chart what was actually in the briefcase in “Pulp Fiction”? Quite possibly.
Thank you for this AvS, as a person who lives in South Dakota (Where if you say “oh snap” you would be ridiculed.) I will be printing this out to keep as a reference so I can learn how to use this extremely urban word, and fit in in the big city(Omaha, NE) next time I go there.
My condolences on the state of your residency.
I’ve got a Ebonics handbook you can borrow 😉
Did I kill this thread?
Nah, it’s like between 1 and 4 in the morning over here in the states. Everybody’s probably gone to bed. Well, those of us who don’t have insomnia anyway.
I’m in the states too so put me in the insomniac camp; I like to get work done mostly at night.
For some reason I thought you from the U.K. Don’t know why.
I don’t get any work done this late. I am usually catching up on tv shows from the last few days or listening to podcasts.
It’s the iambic pentameter eh? And make that: I try to do work at night. Most of the time I do the same as you.
ebert doesnt like 3d movies and i agree with him
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