CCW 3.62: FIRST RANTS! Meet the NEW “New Avengers” (Same as the OLD “New” Avengers?)

Posted: June 23, 2010 in CCW TV
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  1. DAMN YOU BENDIS AND QUESADA NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MORE NEW AVENGERS. first the price increase now this are marvel shareholders trying to hang loyal fans by the ankles and take all the money that falls out.

  2. hackslash2020 says:

    Now we have Luke Cage leading the New Avengers..AND the Thunderbolts.
    Instead of buying both, instead of choosing one, i’m gonna drop both books 😛
    On the other hand, i’m gonna miss the artwork of Stuart Immonen..
    Elliot, I really enjoyed it giving him so much credits for his work.

    • Oh yeah, did I mention that the art is GORGEOUS?

      😛

      Elliott

    • Deemar says:

      I’m reading T-bolts it’s suprisingly good!

      Plus I’m glad someone other than Bendis gets to play with Luke Cage.

    • majordamage says:

      Thunderbolts is pretty entertaining so far and the art is good. If you read caveman batman, it’s the same guy. The characters all have interesting stylized looks.

      To me it seems like you are watering down all the teams with so many characters in each others books. Why not just put out one huge $20 a month book called Marvel Pals or something, that’s basically what it is anyways.

      You weaken the individual identity of the brand by having each star character in every book speaking the same Bendis-speak. Not every Superhero should speak like the Gilmore Girls? At least they change the font when Thor talks to make it seem different. (Although I personally don’t like his speech font and wish it was the writing not the typography that made it stand out…)

  3. Dre says:

    Having flippd through the issue my self and seeing many scenes there in, I thought you guys would have taken issue with one in particular given how outraged you’ve been before at the depiction and traeatment of women in the work of the creater in question. The scene I’m referring to? When Luke, to me, unecessarily thunder claps Victoria Hand half way through Avengers mansions. This is something I though would have markedly raised you guys’ ire. Did you think it was justified because she was holding a gun to Lukes family?

    • I didn’t find the scene to be gratuitously violent as some other scenes we’ve seen in the past. If anything, it was comical. And yeah, she was pointing a gun at Luke Cage’s baby, so it could have gone waaaaaay worse.

      Now if Luke had decided to rip Victoria Hand’s HEAD OFF, then we’d take issue.

      ‘Cuz that’s what we do round these here parts. 😉

      Elliott

      • kurumais says:

        when exactly did luke cage get strong enough to pull off a hulk like thunderclap?
        i read quite a bit of power and whole bunch of powerman and ironfist
        somehow luke cage seems to have doubled on strength since his powerman days
        (and he had heart attack too for no reason )

      • Deemar says:

        Nah, It could have been worse.

        Remember Bendis is the guy who had Jessica “Probed” by Luke in Alias

    • Luiz de Mello says:

      To be fair, I had more issues myself with her holding the gun like that in the first place. She used to be more self controlled, secure, and smart than that, at least on the surface (judge internally as you will). Another case of whatever gets the ‘story’ going, it seems.

      Best part, is that the Wolverine scene would have been much shorter and more important if it was done right on their first contact, with her having a hidden hightech gun on her back and speaking like a person who was asked to be there by a higher (political) power, rather than a little frightened girl. It would be Luke making a decision on the field and on the fly, showing that he knows how to employ his team members that he chose for a reason (more than we are buddies) and all that stuff that makes the reader know why the fuck this guy is the leader. Good characterization doesn’t need 1029321 issues/dialogues/”cool” splash pages and large panels saying “you would never notice this otherwise, but this guy is powerful/a good leader, fear him/respect him”, that should be recognizable alone by what characters are and what they do.

  4. Mike F says:

    haha, title referencing the Who song? 🙂 Nice

  5. Venom829 says:

    If only Bendis could write this like his early Ult. Spider-Man, or even the first volume of the N.A., which I liked up into a certain point (post Civil War), nothing good can come from Marvel.

  6. DidioForever says:

    What the fuck is up with this relaunch bullshit that Bendis seems to love so much?

    Look at Ultimate Comics Spiderman – exactly the same thing, and not even relaunched in the sense that they ‘wiped the slate clean’ for potential new readers – both relaunches have continued with characters and story threads from the previous volumes anyway.

    And putting out those ‘Requiem’/’Finale’ issues when Spidey never actually died and the New Avengers never actually split up…Gawddd

    I used to love his older stuff, even Secret War, the first few NA arcs and House of M (!), but as soon as he started juggling two Avengers titles at any given point (New+Mighty, then New+Dark and now New+Singular) the quality went to shit and it never came back.

    Why does he insist on saturating his stuff like this? Between Avengers and New Avengers, If you got rid of Spiderman, Wolverine and The Thing you’d actually have ONE awesome line up. And maybe with ONE title to work with we’d get more enjoyable material like that Free Comic Book Day Avengers done-in-one from last year or what Siege promised around #2…?

    It’s just pure ego really. Bendis is as much the comics equivalent to Tarrantino as he tries to emulate the guy’s writing – he believes his own hype and will continue to mail in absolute shit as long as pepple reward him for it.

    *rant over*

  7. Bboyce109 says:

    So wait Spiderman and Wolverine are both in Avengers and New Avengers?

  8. Venom829 says:

    Kinda funny actually since there having burgers, and I’m going to Burger King tonight for dinner, lol 🙂

  9. kurumais says:

    i read this book and thought why isnt this the defenders? why not differentiate the books?
    i didnt get it either

    • Edward2962 says:

      Ha! That’s totally my feeling,Kuru! I gave up on NA a long time along and came back when Stuart came aboard.I felt it’s not that bad but it’s not an Avengers book,it’s the New Defenders.How about that recent issue where Jessica got Luke’s friends to help save him from Osborne? They were almost all former Defenders.And the new comic is STILL the New Defenders! Dr Strange and Son of Satan are driving the action fer pete’s sake! All they need is the Surfer or maybe Gargoyle! I kinda feel BMB KNOWS it’s the Defenders,but knows it’ll sell better calling it New Avengers.

      Also,LOL cuz Elliot’s scenario is almost exactly how I bought the new issue.Like alot of ppl I’ve cut WAY back on new comics.I thought well Stuart’s drawing it and it looks like stuff’s going on,I’ll take a chance.I actually liked it better than I thought I would.

      Dumb geek suggestion: It would be cool if Submariner guest starred for a few issues.

  10. Mike F says:

    I take it the artwork sucked ass?

    • Mike F says:

      Honestly Elliot, you took that Gorgeous thing too far, I can’t tell now if its sarcasm… At first I believed you but now? hah, Not sure.

      I don’t read Immonen’s books so I’m not sure if he’s a good drawer or not too..

      • Honestly, it’s gorgeous! Ever since he did Nextwave with Warren Ellis, Stuart Immonen has been doing some incredible work!

        Elliott

        • Dre says:

          You know which artist come to mind when I think of that adjective? Marco Checchetto. His work on the most recently concluded DD arc, with much, much credit given to Matt Hollingsworths’ majestic colors, was stunning. In issue 506 he did one of the most brilliantly illustrated Elecktra’s I’ve seen ince the Dark Reign mini last year. His work is worthy of just as much praise.

        • Mike F says:

          I kinda remember his old “new avengers” work and it wasn’t awful I guess…

  11. Insideman says:

    Great vid, guys.

    I’m gonna hit on a couple of points.

    The first point goes toward your phenomenal photographic memory Jose:

    I am just now reading the DARK REIGN Hardcover Reprints– which, of course, include a SHITLOAD of AVENGERS Hardcovers. (I know, pray for me that I don’t eat a bullet before this is all over.)

    I have read like 8 Avengers or Avengers-related books (meaning at least FORTY ISSUES of Avenger and directly related Avengers material) and WOLVERINE has done the following:

    1) Burped while eating
    2) Burped while drinking a beer
    3) Asked someone to pass him some food while eating
    4) Agreed (DURING DINNER) with the rest of the crew that his sense of smell was “worthless” because he got fooled by a couple of Skrulls.

    THAT IS FUCKING IT. Sure, he’s in the fight scenes– but he rarely speaks– nor is he often in the forefront– nor pivotal– to any of the action.

    SPIDER-MAN is there just to make lame jokes or puns. Other than the scene where Peter Parker almost refused to unmask– he has done nothing else but sit around and eat with his mask half rolled up… and ALWAYS with his feet CLINGING to the wall. He hardly takes part in what little action there is… Mirroring Wolverine’s NON-participation.

    Elliott, you could not be MORE correct than to say that these MAJOR characters have just been picked for the “cash grab”– because they will help sell the book.

    Does anybody fucking remember when the Avengers would have THREE Heavy Hitters (CAP, THOR & IRON MAN, for example) and the rest of the crew would be characters that desperately needed EXPOSURE within the Marvel Universe– or were considered too weak to carry their own on-going series?

    Elliott– Just like you said: THAT’S EXACTLY THE WAY IT SHOULD BE!

    Marvel used to use the Avengers books as a platform to expose Marvel readers to NEW characters and to build up seemingly weaker characters so they could establish more of a fan following and hopefully move on to “star” in their own titles.

    It CAN still be done. Their were TONS of cool spin-offs from Greg Pak’s HULK (some still around). Guardians of the Galaxy is exposing (and reintroducing) lots of GREAT CHARACTERS. But the Avengers– same ol’, same ol’ just like you said… And also just like you said: NOT EVEN IN CONTINUITY.

    BOTTOM LINE: I think that Bendis’ use of almost all “Heavy Hitters” in the Avengers books actually EXPOSES Bendis’ RAMPANT INSECURITY as a writer. It is as if he doesn’t think he can write a book that sells without putting the same UBER POPULAR characters in each title– regardless of whether they serve any real purpose or not.

    This practice of front-loading The Avengers with so much “A-List” super-hero “talent” also exposes Bendis’ FEAR as a writer… As if he doesn’t want to put a VARIED team in place– in fear that the title might NOT sell well.

    [Look at what happened when Spider-Woman unceremoniously folded after seven issues… SILENCE. Hardly any talk of that failure. (And I am NOT saying he disowned the work… In fact, he stated over and over how much he loved it. I’m just saying that the book is now being swiftly– and very efficiently– shoved under the rug.)]

    Like I wrote before– maybe Bendis thinks because HE is so successful that the writers of the solo books should take a cue from the way HE writes their characters… Since it is more than obvious he AIN’T paying attention to any of their work!

    I have to say I loved how animated Jose got about the inclusion of the Thing from the FF and how what Ben said in the New Avengers book had ZERO to do with what was actually happening in the FF’s own book. I’m sure everybody has noticed but Jose getting SO ADAMANT– that the camera actually started SWAYING back and forth for a moment– was CLASSIC.

    Thanks for your PASSION guys. It makes the bullshit surrounding this pastime just a little more bearable!

    • And thanks for your always insightful and entertaining comments Insideman. They are always appreciated.

      J.

    • kurumais says:

      great post inside love the wolverine spidey research but i have to disagree with bendis relying on a list heavy hitters or no exposing or spotlighting new or lesser characters

      spider woman would have still been dead and buried in comic limbo if not for bendis

      also luke cage come on luke cage was going nowhere powerman was never a big seller either was powerman and iron fist how long ago was their book canceled ? he took a c list BLACK guy and made him leader of the avengers! let that sink in a bit. E has said it before and ive said it on a black panther message before and so have many others ” BLACK CHARACTERS DONT SELL” and yet bendis found a place for luke cage in alias, his DD run and now front and center in the new avengers. cage is also the star and leader of the thunderbolts now.
      you have to give bendis credit for that at least. you dont have to like his comics but you have to admit when it comes to luke cage and spider woman he made part of his mission to make them into a stars.

      • Insideman says:

        I TOTALLY AGREE kurumais.

        And please don’t get me wrong– I seriously give Bendis credit for many positive things. Unfortunately, most of those things are in the distant past… And please understand I wasn’t discussing those positive things in my post– I was discussing his overuse of certain Marvel heroes in conjunction with The Avengers franchise.

        You’re absolutely right though: What Bendis did for Luke Cage and Jessica Drew (and even Matt Murdock) was great.

        Unfortunately, like our distinguished hosts have mentioned several times… Luke needs to stay in one book or, at the very least– be the “leader” of just one team… NOT FOREVER… But just for a little while. He is already becoming overexposed in what I am currently reading (and I am reading hardcovers and trades that are a year to a year and half behind what you are reading in floppies). In the stories I am currently reading, Luke’s not even leader of the Thunderbolts yet!

        And there are always exceptions to every rule (at least in my world), kurumais. I’m not saying that Bendis can’t write. I’m just with Jose & Elliott on this one… I DON’T know if Bendis REALLY WANTS to knock our socks off anymore. I strongly feel a TREMENDOUS amount of coasting on his part now.

        I believe one of the main points Elliott and Jose were emphasizing was that Bendis keeps doing the SAME (DINNER) SCENE over and over. My problem with that: As the most popular writer in comics (sales-wise), Bendis has this HUGE showcase and could be doing amazing things for a whole host of Marvel characters– rejuvenating a gaggle of heroes that we, as fans, have written off (due to mismanagement and piss-poor writing) long ago.

        But other than the examples you mentioned (and maybe a few more)– Bendis hasn’t done anything like that. He (obviously) is aware of Avengers history– he could be doing all sorts of wild things with all sorts of forgotten also-rans… But instead, we get a line-up of overused popular BIG PERSONALITY characters that– as Jose and Elliott keep pointing out– ALL TALK THE SAME. EXACTLY THE SAME.

        Let me tell you how long it takes to write one 22 page comic book story for a book or character that you don’t really care about. In other words, how long it takes to write a story JUST for the paycheck.

        I saw a famous comic creator (and don’t ask me to name who– no one likes a tattle-tale who speaks out of school) write an ENTIRE comic book from beginning to end in 32 MINUTES. Thirty-Two FUCKING minutes. He emailed it in and it was accepted by the publisher (one of the Big Two) in about an hour with ZERO revisions requested.

        Bendis has his formula down to such an “art form” now– I can’t even begin to imagine how quickly he writes an average issue of an average Avengers comic. In this day of decompressed story telling– with stories deliberately slowed so they span 5 to 6 issues to fill a hardcover or trade paperback… The ability to a write a 22 page story QUICKLY is incredibly increased.

        Of course, if you’re TALENTED– it doesn’t matter how quickly (or slowly) you write something. If you SUCK– you could spend 10 Years writing the same comic book story and it would still SUCK. It also doesn’t hurt to be in Bendis’ or Millar’s position– where they can pretty much shit on their printer and have that accepted as a story. These guys– and other POPULAR writers like them– are basically writing WITHOUT editors. The WRITERS tell the editors what’s gonna happen in every issue… And there are a TON writers getting away with that in this business right now… Hence why Jose is always bitching about the LACK of continuity between titles.

        So, I agree. (God, that would have been so much quicker to just write that! 🙂 )

        • rush says:

          So are you going to read Scarlet?

          • kurumais says:

            thats cool inside i just wanted to give the guy credit where credit is due
            and i agree he has definitely brought wolverine on the team and done absolutely nothing with him. i wonder how the dyed in the wool wolvie fans feel abot the book ? i dont think we have any around here.
            i do think he does a decent spidey when he remembers to use him . but spidey has been on this team waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay tooooooooooooo long. spidey is a solo act he is the protector of nyc not the world there is something quintessential about spidey and his relationship with the city.
            how long do you think fans of those 2, marvels biggest stars ,hung around this book? the folks that started picking up the book specifically for spidey and wolvie? i cant see them hanging around long to see wolverine burp not when you can see him do his hack and slashing in half a dozen other titles.

            i’ve been the resident brain micheal bendis fan around here and even i think it time for either him to go or the title itself. i was hoping the end of dark reign would get this team moving but that looks like its never going to happen

    • Deemar says:

      We got another writer in our midst

      Nice post Insider

  12. generaldark says:

    immonin needs off the book, im alwaise tempted to read this book cause of him.

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